tiocfaidharlulz:

jtem replied to your photo: from Anti-Fascist Action Ireland: A picture of… Hey, Ireland is divided and occupied, let’s claim the British have a “Right” to do so until the amend a piece of paper, and distract ourselves with abortion and WWII. Yeah! That’s work… for the…

You took a standalone quote there that didn’t even make the point I was making. Anyway, you’re deluded and until you have some pragmatic, or even informed, view on Ireland and what should be done here, I’m going to stick with my own views.

But,

jtem:

I’ve run out of ways to explain it. But, there is a difference. There is a difference between a Brit living within the British partition in Ireland, a partition that was built and maintained on the blood of the Irish for the benefit of the British — there is a difference between them and someone who isn’t British, for whom nobody’s country was raped, for whom nobody was murdered or imprisoned.

Let me try this:  If all the British left the partition, if they went back to their country or moved into Irish controlled Ireland the partition instantly ends. This is not true for any German, Italian, French or Pole. But if all the British pact up and left the rape of Ireland would immediately cease. It is their presence which the British state, operating in the name of the queen, use as an excuse for the occupation.

Again, you didn’t explain it. You gave a very brief topic sentence on what has happened to Ireland and then said individual Brits should be blamed and punished for it. You think I’m deluded on the American justice system, I think there’s a good chance you may be a bit deluded on the North of Ireland.

If individual Brits packed up and left, the partition would remain. British settlers came here hundreds of years ago and have since, to some degree, integrated into our society. What you’re describing is Brits who actively agree with the partition and help to maintain it, a lot of individual Brits here don’t do that. Those who maintain the British occupation and the partition of the country are Irishmen. They may not see themselves as so, they consider themselves British, but they’re born and raised here, they’re part of the community in the North East and will not, and should not, be booted out of the country. It’s a native minority in Ireland that want to maintain the union and the occupation of the six counties, it is not down to a number of British immigrants. You’re assumption that them leaving would allow for the border to disappear is naieve and ignorant, no harm. There simply either needs to be political moves to legally reunite the country or an armed struggle to reunite the country.

jtem:

Um, again, the context was your over-the-top reaction, and the point was quite clear:  You were defending Brits who actually benefit from the rape of Ireland even as you were condemning an entire state for the actions of a single individual.

It honestly was clear. We began our exchange with you defending a Brit taking advantage of the British rape of Ireland, benefiting from it, using it to move to British occupied Ireland and go to a school which historically played a role in the repression of the Irish. Then you turned around and condemned an entire state — more people than all of Ireland, by the way — because of the words (not deeds, not gleeful harvesting of the blood of the anyone), just words — of a single person.

“You were defending Brits who actually benefit from the rape of Ireland even as you were condemning an entire state for the actions of a single individual.”
How do individual Brits - the ones who don’t degrade Ireland or disrespect it’s culture - benefit from the rape of Ireland in a way different to any other foreign individual living here? The actions of their state is not their actions and if you think punishing them individually for something they had no part in, I think you’re a detriment to Irish Republicanism. In context of your comparison here; there is no hypocrisy whatsoever. In fact, you’re being more of a hypocrite, and I’m showing continuity in my condemnations. I’m condemning the state, because it is the states who is to blame for death penalty murders. The state and it’s systemic racism, through the police, the courts, the prison system and so on allows for the constant injustice put upon the people within that state. It’s not individuals doing that, it’s the state. I never said I wanted harm to come to individuals, I want it to come to the state through riots. In comparison to the North of Ireland, this is the same. It is not the fault of individual Brits that the system in the North if the way it is, it is the the fault of the British state and it’s institutions, those of which in the North of Ireland I either do not recognize, despise or would happily work against. In Georgia as in Ireland I will not blame individuals for the actions of a rotten and pathetic state unless they have shown themselves to support it, rather I will blame the state and it’s corruption for the injustices brought upon the people. If you honestly still don’t understand this, I’ve lost all hope.
As for QUB being part of the repression of Ireland… so was Belfast City Hall, so are many areas of Belfast and Tyrone and Armagh and Fermanagh… so was all the universities down South, which were created in the same exact way as Queens, which you just keep ignoring when I bring it up. Irish history is riddled with oppression and injustice - if you think anybody, Irish, British or anything else, can live in Ireland and get on with life without using something relating to the oppression of my country, you simply don’t have a clue.

And I wasn’t saying Georgia should burn because of ‘Viva’s’ words, I was saying Georgia should burn for the murder of Troy Davis, and all those before and after him who face the same unfair and unjust fate. And by burn, again, I meant riots should take place.

jtem:

tiocfaidharlulz:

What the fuck are you talking about lol?
I’m a hardline Republican, of course I know that some people and institutions are cunts. Me and you have already talked about this, I can’t understand why you completely disregard what I’ve said to you before.

Context. It’s all in the context. I was responding to your over-the-top reaction towards that Viva person.

If it’s all in context, why are you bringing up a completely different context?
Ireland and the racist and unfair doling out of the death penalty in America are completely different topics. A few similarities here and there, but in no way are they contextually comparable. I wasn’t having an over-the-top reaction, you simply didn’t read it as it was meant to be expressed. When people talk about “setting a place on fire” they’re referring to rioting. Like when when London “was burning” last month and like when the place is set alight in Belfast every 12th of July.

jtem:

tiocfaidharlulz:

 

Again, you’re right, the onus isn’t on the Irish. But it’s not on every British citizen either. What the British state did/does to my country was/is worthy of violent reaction and people should be repulsed by the British state because of it’s role in Ireland - North and south - particularly in it’s continued occupation of six of our counties. Britain judged and repressed, discriminately, the Irish people for their own benefit, Britain used the system to expliot my people and Britain advocated the idea that the Irish were scum, that they shouldn’t be accepted or respected, evident through the microcosmic “no Irish need apply” signs throughout British history. That kind of attitude, typical of the British state, is something which makes my blood boil; I understand and appreciate it does the same to you, however we seem to draw lines there - you’re willing to have an equal reaction to all British people because of the British state

No. I just made it clear that this was not the case. It is the case for the British IN THE NORTH. The north is partitioned by the British. The north is occupied and ruled by the British. The British consider the northern counties to be British soil. You will find them on every map of the U.K. And, yes, there is a HUGE, a MASSIVE difference between a Brit and a Brit moving to/living in the British partition. There is a MASSIVE difference between a Brit and a Brit taking advantage of the rape of Ireland. There is a difference between a Brit and a Brit traveling to British occupied Ireland to attend a school that only exists because of the rape of Ireland, a school which actually played an important political role in the rape of Ireland.

There is a difference.

Aye, but you keep saying there’s a difference, but not saying what the difference is. If they are not actively repressing, exploiting or degrading the Irish people - in fact, if some of them come here and turn out to be activists advocating a united Irish Republic - what is it I’m supposed to be against them being here for?

jtem:

tiocfaidharlulz:

Well, no. I go to Queens University in Belfast, I don’t see that as me “taking advantage” of the rape of my country. I agree the six counties continue to be raped and ruined by Britain but I don’t think anybody who uses the facilities here as being morally bankrupt for doing so - and I think to see it as so and to see the North as a seperate entity,

JTEM:

I agree that the moral dilemma is not on everyone, it’s not on any of the Irish. It’s on the British. The rape of Ireland shames the rapists, not the victim, not Ireland and not the Irish.

What’s more, I wouldn’t react the same way towards a French student, or a German student traveling to any part of Ireland, going to any school in Ireland. Ireland wasn’t raped in their name, for their benefit. No school was built for them with the blood of the Irish used to wet its mortar. The issue is a British girl moving to a British enclave created specifically for British people, just to attend a school that actually played an important political roll in the repression of the Irish in Ireland.

Yes, THAT is different from an Irish person living in that same enclave:  IT’S IRELAND, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WHY SHOULDN’T THE IRISH LIVE THERE?

As for “it would be different in Dublin or Galway” because “she would not be taking advantage of the rape of Ireland” - British imperialism raped the whole of my nation and it’ effects are still heavily existing down south, in fact I’d argue there’s more West Brit attitudes in the South of Ireland than there is in the North. The partition of the country is maintained by the British, yes, but in the individual case you pointed out she would appear to be an unlikely candidate to support the continued partition of the country, British students studying here can’t vote on that issue and they did not create it themselves so I think it’s highly unfair and pointless to blame each individual Brit student here for partition.

Of course it’s wrong to benefit from the suffering of my people, but things have advanced since then. I’d love to see QUB reformed or taken down for a new university to be put up, I’d love to see the name changed. But going to that university doesn’t make any individual, and I refuse to accept that it makes me, a beneficiary of the deaths and struggles of my people. It’s in our interest to retake these shitty institutions and we have done.

tiocfaidharlulz:

I agree with you to an extent, but I don’t think you have it well enough in context and I think you’re way of thinking on this is indiscriminate; you have to look at it fairly and looking at circumstance.

I hope I’ve cleared things up, drew the blanket back some, uncovered most people and circumstances. The issue is not with anyone but the British, and only with the British in so far as the north goes. The issue is British people moving to an area of Ireland occupied & partitioned for British people, to go to a school that only exists because of that partition, a school that actually played a part in the historical repression of the Irish in Ireland.

It’s different for the non-British (whom the partition was not created for), it’s different for the Irish and it’s different for the British in any part of Ireland outside the north. A Brit in any part of Ireland outside the north is just fine. There are no issues there. But the north of Ireland remains under foreign — BRITISH — occupation and repression.

Again, you’re right, the onus isn’t on the Irish. But it’s not on every British citizen either. What the British state did/does to my country was/is worthy of violent reaction and people should be repulsed by the British state because of it’s role in Ireland - North and south - particularly in it’s continued occupation of six of our counties. Britain judged and repressed, discriminately, the Irish people for their own benefit, Britain used the system to expliot my people and Britain advocated the idea that the Irish were scum, that they shouldn’t be accepted or respected, evident through the microcosmic “no Irish need apply” signs throughout British history. That kind of attitude, typical of the British state, is something which makes my blood boil; I understand and appreciate it does the same to you, however we seem to draw lines there - you’re willing to have an equal reaction to all British people because of the British state - I will never do to the ordinary British individual what the British state did to the people of Ireland. A state is not it’s people; in almost every case historically it does not represent them and it does dispicable things on their behalf and in their name - as politically minded individuals we should be able to recognize this and not put it on the masses that that state claims to be acting for. There are British people who advocate a united Irish republic, they are not using Ireland and they are not disrespecting the culture and history of Ireland, a British individual (provided they do not benefit from imperialism at the detriment of my country, or disrespect my country) is a very welcome immigrant, much like every Polish, American, Vietnamese, Chinese, Roma or whatever other kind of student, is and should be in Ireland.

As for QUB’s history: as seanmacdiarmada pointed out, the other universities in Ireland (down suoth) NUIG, UCD etc. were founded int he same way Queens was. They’re all one in the same, that is simply the way the cookie crumbled in Ireland’s history; they are schools in Ireland and they’re used majorly by Irish student, in fact mostly nationalist Irish students. You won’t find a university over here that doesn’t apply to your rape description.

Of course the Irish should live here, in this “british” enclave (which I still reject as a statement). We do, we make up a large part of the six counties, that doesn’t mean other people shouldn’t be welcome to live here.

Maybe we may just agree to disagree, but I stand entirely by my point. The North of Ireland is as much part of Ireland as Co. Cork. The partition of the country is pathetic and I refuse to accept it politically, I drive five minutes down the road and I’m across the border, so obviously I agree with you on that, however the North is largely nationalist/Republican and Catholic or heretics of the Catholic religion - it’s not British, and the British and the Unionists well know it at this point, therefore I see no problem with individual Brits (who aren’t individually repressing others in the North) being here, in many cases they turn out to be great people with productive roles in our society.

Ireland’s raped historically by the British state, not the individual Brit. I understand that you don’t appreciate this fact, but as an individual from the North here who cares deeply and feels very passionately about the continuing struggle against British occupation in Ireland, I will not go against my individual comrades in Britain who have done nothing wrong to my country. The same as I won’t go against any individual comrade or average citizen of America or the European Union or any other state or group of states which have had a detrimental impact on Ireland.

Fair enough that we disagree, at least we’ve both bantered back and forth our opinions, and clearly I’m not going to change your mind on it. But this is just my opinion and I thought it was important to put it out there.

Saoirse don Éire agus Isbella abú lol